Nobodies and Souls

[vanilla bear]

I thought this up during another thread and I'm not sure if it's been discussed or not. Here goes anyway. What if a Nobody takes the form of the person's soul? As in, why does Roxas look the way he does? Maybe that's what Sora's soul looks like. What do you think?

[Key of Valor]

Difficult to believe. If souls are a unique life force then Sora's would
had to have been replaced by Ven's or merged with his. If a good
reason for this to occur can be logically explained then perhaps this
theory might be plausible. I on the other hand am very commited to
my personal theories and will need a lot of convincing to change my
mind.

I do believe there is something that determines the appearence of
a Nobody but I don't necessarily believe it to be the soul.

[Xuan]

In the online comic I've read last day, a few words about Nobodies intrigued me. It was said that, as a Nobody while the former body still lives but asleep, that Nobody could go anywhere he likes until the former body awakens and the Nobody(Roxas) will disappear and go back to the former body(Sora). Confirms that at the end of 151 days, Roxas will disappear.

And than it it say that Roxas had half of Sora's power/energy. Therefore he must be returned to Sora if Sora is to be whole. Sora cannot be whole without Roxas. So I guess this is another unique case in Sora. But it seems that Namine is... unnecesary. No discussions had been made about her except to dispose her once she in done. Which means that she might be a 'backup'. I'm not elaborating any further about this because I have yet to make up my mind.

[vanilla bear]

namine might be a backup? what do you mean?

[lionsbarrage]

im not sure about that either, but her job was done, what use does she have? it would be better to get rid of her, then have the org. use her again against her will.

[Xuan]

I'm not sure what backup means myself. What I don't understand is since Namine is Sora's Nobody, why Ansem the Wise was so eager to get rid of her, even though she is a liability once she's useless.

[lionsbarrage]

I'm not sure what backup means myself. What I don't understand is since Namine is Sora's Nobody, why Ansem the Wise was so eager to get rid of her, even though she is a liability once she's useless.

Except Roxas is soras nobody, there be no use for him and Sora, if i were even to believe Namine was Soras nobody, which i dont buy for a second.

[Xuan]

I mean, Ansem the Wise himself stated that Namine was Sora's Nobody, so why exactly did he went to great lengths to obtain Roxas? And why was he so eager to get rid of Namine? He himself thinks that she was Sora's Nobody.

[lionsbarrage]

I mean, Ansem the Wise himself stated that Namine was Sora's Nobody, so why exactly did he went to great lengths to obtain Roxas? And why was he so eager to get rid of Namine? He himself thinks that she was Sora's Nobody.

He himself did not state so, it was only found in the reports, which i dont think its true or fully true, however if it was then nothing in KH2 is believed, not the lenths to bring Roxas to Sora, or why Riku and ansem the wise both say Roxas is Soras nobody.

[Xuan]

He wrote it didn't he? Same as stating la...

[lionsbarrage]

its two differentn things, for one we cant just take whats written out of a report to the same as stating so, plus ansem himself said differently that Roxas was Soras nobody.

[vanilla bear]

i'm completely blanking and this is a little off-topic but why did sora choose to be put to sleep?

[Key of Valor]

First off, Sora chose to be put to sleep so that his mind could be repared by
Namine. Basically in CoM the Organization took apart Sora's mind and Sora
lost who he was. Sora was torn between everything that he thought was true
and everything he didn't know that was. Sora's situation is oddly similar to
Roxas where he wanted to know who he really was and to do that he would
have to give up the life that was real to him.

As for Ansem, his notes might conradict fact but I don't
believe his research would ever contradict itself.

This is what he said:
Roxas is Sora's Nobody
Namine is Kairi's Nobody
Namine is made of Sora's body and soul

How would one arrive to such a conclusion and have firm belief in this?
Ansem's Notes do not clearly explain how this makes sense so I think
this is not decieving and we should try to make sense of this oursrlves.

One must ask themselves. Does Body and Soul really make the Nobody.

[lionsbarrage]

Yeah in COm Namine erased Soras memories in Kh1, and replaced Kairi with herself in his memories, according o the orgs. wishes, so at the end, Sora would have to sleep for a long time while Namine slowly brings back his old memories, at the cost of his memories in castle oblivion.

As for the reports, based on what u said , did the report clearly state "Namine is Sora's nobody?" Cause eve nif it did, i mena it just contradicts what we seen and heard from ansem and Riku, not to mention Sora and Roxas. I mean this whole thing doesnt make quite sense really, especially when Kairi lost her heart, how was a nobody formed when her body was just in a vegtable like state? I mean, as i said we havent seen an actual nobody be formed. So i wonder, in those reports did ansem actually see a nobody get formed to put his info? Theres just so many gaps.

[vanilla bear]

why did kairi not remember sora in the beginning of kh2? i know these are dumb questions, but it's been a while since i played through the game.

[lionsbarrage]

Not just Kairi, but all the rest of Soras friends, because when namine erased the memories chain in Soras heart. The rest of his friends fogot Sora as well, or could not remember him that much.

[Key of Valor]

In the reports he calls Namine Kairi's Nobody and Roxas Sora's Nobody
yet he explains how he believes Namine is formed from Sora's Body and
Soul so Ansem must believe something else determines whose Nobody
they really are. I always believed that Ansem believed there was a force
that determined a Nobody's existence and that this force is created when
a person's active heart leaves a active vessel.

[lionsbarrage]

In the reports he calls Namine Kairi's Nobody and Roxas Sora's Nobody
yet he explains how he believes Namine is formed from Sora's Body and
Soul so Ansem must believe something else determines whose Nobody
they really are. I always believed that Ansem believed there was a force
that determined a Nobody's existence and that this force is created when
a person's active heart leaves a active vessel.

Well, as i said we never have seen the formation of a nobody, Even so though as i said i dont believe souls make up a nobody. As for why he thinks Soras body and soul make up namine im kinda lost on that info, i mean i get it, but i can t really find any awnser or support for that.

[Xuan]

Body and souls form a Nobody, but the Nobody's mind is determined by the owner's heart.

[lionsbarrage]

Body and souls form a Nobody, but the Nobody's mind is determined by the owner's heart.

Actually we are still unsure about souls having to do with the make up of a nobody. Even more so when Roxas and namine come into the picture, but that has to do with a different aspect.

[Key of Valor]

The person's heart used to form a nobody does play a role in their being
but I don't think it's mind because it appears that body and soul accounts
for the way a nobody thinks.

Lionsbarrage, I agree there's a small possibility that nobodies are not composed
of souls but with all the conflicting evidence this idea cannot be called
reasonable doubt for it is justified by absence of evidence.

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

[lionsbarrage]

The person's heart used to form a nobody does play a role in their being
but I don't think it's mind because it appears that body and soul accounts
for the way a nobody thinks.

Lionsbarrage, I agree there's a small possibility that nobodies are not composed
of souls but with all the conflicting evidence this idea cannot be called
reasonable doubt for it is justified by absence of evidence.

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

Well a persons heart may have an impact on a nobody, as for a soul well, there is lack of evidence, but more so im not even sure we know much about nobodies, i mean i think we only sratched the surface on them.

[Xuan]

I should say it more clearly this time.
The mind is determined by the heart, but it is an more likely the other side of the person which does not manifests unless forced into a terrible position and lose control of his emotions. This other side becomes the mind of Nobodies, which explains why all Nobodies are so... aggressive in a way. Roxas included(Sora went mad and frustated when his attempts to find Riku and Kairi fails again and again with each world they travel, thus Roxas, who is always angry and mad and unsure of his true aim).

Also, we know this: A Nobody's body is determined by the heart. The body is shaped with similarities of its previous owner, so if the previous person is a female, the nobody will be a female. In Sora and Kairi's case, Namine was Kairi's Nobody and not Sora's even though she was formed by his body and soul was because of her heart.

[Key of Valor]

Hm... when you're talking about mind do you mean subconscious,
other personalit, or prime thinking? Or neither? If neither than please
elaborate.

As for the second thing you said I couldn't agree more.

[vanilla bear]

even if the nobody's look is determined by the heart, there must be a reason why they look the way they do, though.. why are roxas and ven exact doubles of each other? we've gotta be overlooking something but i can't figure out what it is

[Xuan]

The mind of a Nobody I mean. His conscious.
And the thing we're overlooking is 'The Proof of Ven's Existence' that makes Roxas and exact double of Ven. if I say it this way, you should know what it is. If you don't I'll just keep it to myself MUHAHAHAHHAHAHA

[lionsbarrage]

I should say it more clearly this time.
The mind is determined by the heart, but it is an more likely the other side of the person which does not manifests unless forced into a terrible position and lose control of his emotions. This other side becomes the mind of Nobodies, which explains why all Nobodies are so... aggressive in a way. Roxas included(Sora went mad and frustated when his attempts to find Riku and Kairi fails again and again with each world they travel, thus Roxas, who is always angry and mad and unsure of his true aim).

Also, we know this: A Nobody's body is determined by the heart. The body is shaped with similarities of its previous owner, so if the previous person is a female, the nobody will be a female. In Sora and Kairi's case, Namine was Kairi's Nobody and not Sora's even though she was formed by his body and soul was because of her heart.


As for ue first part i think ur taking too much into that sorta u know dominate mind conscious, stuff. I mean conscious is what determines right or worng so what does that have to do with ur statement? As for the minds, what makes u think all nobodies are agressive? I mean people are full of all kinds of emotions, so when some sort of action is triggered, a certain emotion is released, no matter who u are. It a natural cause.

As for ur sencond part well, im sure of it. How can the heart determine a nobodys body, when the heart is lost somewhere else? I do agree that the state of the heart has an impact on the nobody, but i dont think it has to do with how the nobody looks. As for Sora and Kairis case that makes little sense, because kairi's heart was lost way before Sora made Roxas. So that sorta puts a wrench in that theory unless nobodies go around looking like something else, beforehand.

[Key of Valor]

Reread the Ansem Note and you will see that Ansem says that when Namine
was first formed her form was unstable until Sora turned into a heartless and
lost his body.

And Xaun is not talking about the conscious but more so the aware part of the
mind that thinks unique and distinctly. Even so I don't agree with that because
I believe it to be far more simple where the nobody is a mixture of the composition
soul and body and impact of the heart.

Proof of Ven's Existence. Here's the thing, there is no proof as of yet or at least
none that I'm aware of. All we have is the word of Nomura. The little evidence we
have can only turn up circumstancial theories and if we're to learn anything we
must all have a open mind. I do admit though that it is hard to change my mind
with my beliefs but I have accepted a few theories that I didn't neccessary agree
with at first.

[NeoRoxas]

Hmm think we could get ALL this information into a single post reading each one of them gives me a headache.

I always thought Namine was Kairi's Nobody but since kairi had no darkness in her heart a unique nobody was formed and no heartless.

also hearts live on forever in memories

[lionsbarrage]

Reread the Ansem Note and you will see that Ansem says that when Namine
was first formed her form was unstable until Sora turned into a heartless and
lost his body.

And Xaun is not talking about the conscious but more so the aware part of the
mind that thinks unique and distinctly. Even so I don't agree with that because
I believe it to be far more simple where the nobody is a mixture of the composition
soul and body and impact of the heart.

Proof of Ven's Existence. Here's the thing, there is no proof as of yet or at least
none that I'm aware of. All we have is the word of Nomura. The little evidence we
have can only turn up circumstancial theories and if we're to learn anything we
must all have a open mind. I do admit though that it is hard to change my mind
with my beliefs but I have accepted a few theories that I didn't neccessary agree
with at first.

How would ansem even know though? as to my knowledge org. had her captive. I mean sure DIZ was spying on the org. but it just another thing where the rports are high specualtion.

[Xuan]

Aha! Now you've made a tiny mistake, KeyOfValor, you see, there is proof of Ven's existence. Proof that kept Ven in this world and not moving ahem, TOWARDS THE LIGHT. Remember? His wristband? And if the other guys are true, his clothes? They popped up on Roxas after ten years which is completely impossible? These, are proof of Ven's existence. Oh yeah, the most obvious part is that Roxas looked exactly the same as Ven. Could you say this is not proof of Ven's existence?

[Key of Valor]

Sorry but perhaps I was little vague.
The evidence you're providing is
proof of Ven's existing connection.
What I mean is there is no proof to
suggest what Ven's existing form
that caused such a connection.

Ven exists but there is little
proof on what state he does
exist in.

[vanilla bear]

ok so key of valor, do you think ven is human or what?

[Xuan]

Let's say Ven's body is no longer, the only existing is his mind. The main objective of the "unknown person" is to completely delete Ven from the world because his existence would cause great harm to his cause.

But Ven as not completely deleted. His clothes is still here, a proof of his existence, which means Ven is not completely gone, and these things kept him in this world, even though deleted, but someday he willl awaken again.

[lionsbarrage]

Let's say Ven's body is no longer, the only existing is his mind. The main objective of the "unknown person" is to completely delete Ven from the world because his existence would cause great harm to his cause.

But Ven as not completely deleted. His clothes is still here, a proof of his existence, which means Ven is not completely gone, and these things kept him in this world, even though deleted, but someday he willl awaken again.

Well just caus eVen looks like Roxas isnt a support either way wether Ven exist like a normal person or not. Now for the clothes, his clothes are not entirely the same, His clothes have the same shape of the clothes, however his clothes are different color, and they are not exactly the same. As for the wristband well no info has really ben around for that, i mean yes u think it have more significance, and it still may. But these things doesnt prove he exists like regular people do like Sora, he may or may not, only time will tell.

[Xuan]

You all overlook the importance of simple clothes...

[Key of Valor]

You over estimate the importance of simple clothes :D

You're right though that the clothing is somewhat important
but as of now we know too little to be able to identify that of
its importance. Besides, has clothing in KH ever made any sense?

[lionsbarrage]

You over estimate the importance of simple clothes :D

You're right though that the clothing is somewhat important
but as of now we know too little to be able to identify that of
its importance. Besides, has clothing in KH ever made any sense?

Nope the only one that has is Sora's in KH2, but that because it gave him new abilities.

[Xuan]

lol, I never though you would have a keener sight about KH than Valor 0.0

[Key of Valor]

Anyway, to answer vanilla bear's question, I think current evidence suggests
Ven is human but I'm not firm in this belief and can easiliy accept any theory
that states otherwise.

[lionsbarrage]

Anyway, to answer vanilla bear's question, I think current evidence suggests
Ven is human but I'm not firm in this belief and can easiliy accept any theory
that states otherwise.


Well based on current evidence for me, i dont think hes like fully human, I mean in terms like everyone else. He may be human, but im not convinced yet either way.

[waitin4KH3]

I have to say there is no evidence that Ven is not human, and since his existence is in the past, we should consider him to be human and Roxas to be something else. Remember, Ven will have the same voice actor that Roxas had.

[vanilla bear]

we do consider roxas to be something else though.. nobodies aren't human

[lionsbarrage]

we do consider roxas to be something else though.. nobodies aren't human

Exactly, as far as VEn goes same actor doing voice m eans didly when we already know they look identical and have similar clothes, AS far as evidence goes, as we stated there the lines of why he says the things he says and why he is connected to Roxas and by the hint Nomura gives, really though there is no strong evidence either way, only specualtion

[vanilla bear]

i'm just going by what you guys say on here.. that seems to be the general consensus

[waitin4KH3]

Exactly, as far as VEn goes same actor doing voice m eans didly when we already know they look identical and have similar clothes, AS far as evidence goes, as we stated there the lines of why he says the things he says and why he is connected to Roxas and by the hint Nomura gives, really though there is no strong evidence either way, only specualtion

The voice actor being the same should mean something to everyone. They wouldn't have gotten the same guy if it wasn't going to have some impact.

[lionsbarrage]

The voice actor being the same should mean something to everyone. They wouldn't have gotten the same guy if it wasn't going to have some impact.

Im not saying, that it doesnt have impact, but when u already know that Ven looks like Roxas and has similar clothes, having the same voice actor then doesnt have has much impact if any then.

[waitin4KH3]

I suppose but if he sounds different then you could change the explanation for them just looking alike.

[lionsbarrage]

I suppose but if he sounds different then you could change the explanation for them just looking alike.

well we already know they are connected in some way, we also know that they are 2 different people. Its just we dont know who exactly Ven is.

[waitin4KH3]

So, any other speculation on their connection?

What if Roxas simply walked away from the org and Riku somehow captured Ven and placed him in the alternate TT? We did see Aqua's armor in the "room of sleep," so maybe Ven found his way to TWTNW.

[lionsbarrage]

So, any other speculation on their connection?

What if Roxas simply walked away from the org and Riku somehow captured Ven and placed him in the alternate TT? We did see Aqua's armor in the "room of sleep," so maybe Ven found his way to TWTNW.

No, we already know from countless facts Riku did take Roxas in from the org. That sure wasnt Ven, assuming Ven is still around.

[Xuan]

After I've read fanfics of Kingdom Hearts from kh-vids.net, khinsider.com and others... I realised that possibilities are endless. Sure, they left out some points, they purposely modified others to siut their story, but truly, to predict the next game correctly? Near impossible... As Ansem the Wise knows not the depth of hearts, so are we about these games...

[waitin4KH3]

Of course there are endless possibilities, but it's fun to try and determine some facts before they are released to the public.

[vanilla bear]

if you haven't noticed, xuan enjoys saying stuff like that to make himself appear intelligent

[Xuan]

At the very least I'm still better than you vanilla.

[lionsbarrage]

if that is a serious post xuan, ur being rude.

[Xuan]

I am serious. If this guy ain't gunna respect me, I will not give him any of mine either.

[Key of Valor]

Well Xaun, you do have a history of being arrogant
so if you want to earn respect you should watch what
you say in your posts.

I think you are quite intelligent but it appears you
go out of your way to indirectly state your mental
superiority. wether you do this purposely or not,
you should know thats how it appears to us so
please turn it down a notch and think before you
post.

And I suggest that you and vanilla should both
apologize to each other for displaying slight
insensitivity towards one another.

Perhaps this thread should return to its original
topic.

To slove the mystery of Roxas and Ven we should
ask the simple questions to look at the simple answers.

What as of now do we know of their relation?
Same body for one thing. Anything else?

[Xuan]

Let me ask you one thing: Did I apologise when I did something wrong? Did I admit it? Yes, I did, and I apologised as well. Then let me ask another thing: Did he apologise whenever he insults me? Ever? There is no way in hell I'm gonna aplogise for this one. He wants to play this game, I'll play along.

[lionsbarrage]

Let me ask you one thing: Did I apologise when I did something wrong? Did I admit it? Yes, I did, and I apologised as well. Then let me ask another thing: Did he apologise whenever he insults me? Ever? There is no way in hell I'm gonna aplogise for this one. He wants to play this game, I'll play along.

Take it from someone, who has gotten into a quarrel with another member here for who knows how many posts, and gotten and infraction for it. We have recently patched things up and though our repspect for each hasnt changed much we still decided to forgive and forget. IF he didnt deicde to apologize or w/e that is his problem not urs, but u dont have to retaliate. If u don't like him just put him on ignore that way u dont see his posts.

As for nobodies and souls, well i still think thats the ingredient, we are missing since we know very very little about it. As for Roxas and Ven, well lets see, they are 2 different people that have same body, style of clothes, voice and height. Wether Ven is completely human or not still remians quite a mystery, so what can we gather from that.

[Xuan]

I agree with KeyOfValor on the Keyblades Roxas using might symbolises Riku and Kairi.

Notice when Riku fought Roxas:

"I'm me!" *Roxas pulled out second Keyblade, Oathkeeper when he says this*

This supports mine and also KeyOfValor's theory. This might be a sign that he will not give in to the Dark fate Nobodies all have to face, and, Kairi is the symbol of hope and never give up. THe Oblivion represents the Dark road like Riku had taken, a reminder that his inveitable fate. Roxas was trying to alter his doomed fate.

I could fit this in my theory as well. So it's really just a problem of the lack of info.

As for Ven and Roxas, their relationship is quite clear.

[lionsbarrage]

I agree with KeyOfValor on the Keyblades Roxas using might symbolises Riku and Kairi.

Notice when Riku fought Roxas:

"I'm me!" *Roxas pulled out second Keyblade, Oathkeeper when he says this*

This supports mine and also KeyOfValor's theory. This might be a sign that he will not give in to the Dark fate Nobodies all have to face, and, Kairi is the symbol of hope and never give up. THe Oblivion represents the Dark road like Riku had taken, a reminder that his inveitable fate. Roxas was trying to alter his doomed fate.

I could fit this in my theory as well. So it's really just a problem of the lack of info.

As for Ven and Roxas, their relationship is quite clear.


Well Roxas gave Riku the oblivion, so what else does Roxas have except the oathkeeper in his hand, but yes everything else sounds about right. and how is Ven and Roxas relationship quite clear except by looking like one anoether.

[queen garnet]

ok now.Ven ended up frozen in the trailer and we know he asked from a friend to erase him though we do not know what erase is in the Kingdom Hearts world.But we can assume something bad happened to him.The fact that Soras nobody and not directly Sora himself looks exactly like Ven is the comfusing.Roxas is Soras soul inside his old body.So maybe someone put Vens soul ,heart or both inside Sora long ago to save Ven.

[queen garnet]

what does Roxas keyblades have to do with it you have confused me!!

[queen garnet]

oh my!!! I just thought of something.If Roxas and Sora have something to do with Vens soul and heart wouldnt Namine who was formed by Soras body and soul have something to do with it too?

[lionsbarrage]

one of the rules here is too not double post in which u tripled posted, please keep ur future posts in one post til lsomeone replies.

[queen garnet]

i am really sorry!!!