Good vs Evil on earth

[Xykru]

Note: In this debate, I would like all religion to be left outside, here we are going to talk simply about human nature, not any divine influences upon the human psyche.


Right, so now a days, we always here people saying: "Oh, that person who rules this country is evil" and other such things, so I ask:

What constitutes as 'evil' in modern society? And in the opposite hand, what constitutes as 'good'?

What is the line between the two?

And mostly: Does that line, or the two factions even exist?

[Mudson]

Essentally, there is no such thing as good or evil.
It is all a frame of mind.

People do generally agree that things are either good or evil, but thats in our own society. Within others these things have different purouses.
An example, Adolf Hitler.
In his eyes, everything he did was for the good of mankind.
In most other peoples eyes, we see it as evil.

Who are we to say that he was wrong?
Maybe it might have helped the world (Just clarifying at this point, I do not support any of hitlers ideas, just using it theoreticcaly :P) He may have been right, we may have all been wrong.
We usually associate evil with pain and suffering. But then when its for the better good we over look that and look at the bigger picture.
Good and eil only exist as opinions :P

However, I am very hypocritical in that, because I do define certain things as good or evil, and sometimes what I just said above, I cannot apply full stop :P
And example being recently in Canada I think it was.
3 teenagers broke into a house, then microwaved a cat to death.
What good would come from this? How can this be perceived in anyway BUT evil :S
It sick, in my opinion as was what hitler did.But tese tings happened and the person who did it must have reasons, even if we an't understand them.

This post doesn't really support any desicion.
I mean, you have the thought that Good and Evil are only existant as a frame of mind which was what my frst section supported.
But then sometimes, thing such as the cats murder cannot be constituted as good in any light that I can see at least.

This is a tricky subject, hopefully with more peoples opinions I can come to a conclusion myself :P


*has struggled to not mention religion XD*

[Xykru]

I know, the religion thing was my saftey catch to keep me from ranting for wayyyy to long.

But I fully agree with you. I often stress the point that there is virtually no line between good and evil alone without any religion. What one person views as good may cause harm to another. Does this make them evil?

I think not. Many things cannot be view as anything but evil, such as the cat incident you mentioned. But, maybe in that person's eyes, cats are over populated? Or maybe they were righting a wrong done to their person in thier own, although sickening, manner?

Now, most people when asked, say killing is evil. To take another human's life is the epitome of evil. To those, I propose this question:

You are given a choice. You (insert loved one [mom, spouce, etc.]) is held at gun point. The assailent does know you are there. Your only options are kill, or watch your loved one be killed.

What do you do?

People have been in this situation and have killed to protect. Is that wrong?

Is necessity evil?

So, in a grander scale, people say war is evil. Same situation. You don't kill the enemy, they may get to your home and kill your family.

Not tolerable.

So then, I say good and evil exist, yet there is no line that seperates them, but they are one faction, mingling together, ready to be taken and viewed through the scope of each individual.

[Mudson]

Right you are :P
Good and Evl differ fro persn to person.

What I do find slightly unerving is the law dictates what is good and what is evil.
this means the government are playing with things that aren't theirs to use ;)
This often results in jailings (or death for some American states) for things, that whilt serving the ppurpouse of a greater good, would mean that the person behind it all is punished.
In the situation you suggested, if you killed to protect. You would still go down for murder, a smaller sentance as its not premeditated, but still you would be punished for something that was out of your hands.
Surerly this is wrong :/

Which leads me to my next point, along with wether good or evil exists.
Do you think that if they do exist, we as humans have a right to dictate wether the "evil" actions are punnishable.
I mean the Law does its job, it keeps the country in order. But in certain siutations should acceptions be made?

btw Xikru, if I'e gone slightly too off topic in my rant just say so XD
I have a habit of doing that >_<
sorry :P

[Xykru]

Perfectly fine, it is on topic, just in a vague way.

So then, good and evil can only be judged by the few who it is effecting. That is where law would come in I think, an non-biast side linner that can make choices clearly and smoothly. Whether exeptions should be made or not, I do think that this should varry on each individual's story. In the case of the kill or watch others kill, it is not considered self defence, so you can be tried and found guilty. Self defence only extends to your person. So, then, who are the judges to choose the lines of good and evil? That is one person's opinion.

This is where the jury comes in. A mutlitude of non-biast opinions can choose correctly, or so we believe.

(Yay, law class actually tought me somethign!)

[Mudson]

Hope you don't mind again XD
But I've quoted things from this thread onto another forum I visit, because this debate intrests me :P
I might quote some of their opinions over here aswell ^^

[Xykru]

:D 'Tis cool. Helps get the view around, and hopefully expands the view of some narrow minded people.

its always nice to here other's too, so feel free to post things from other forums you've heard on teh topic!

[Mudson]

This sentance in particular has alread stood out to me, and creates a nice little discussion to :p

Remember when you're handling a baby, and it might bite you or something and you say 'It doesn't know it's wrong yet'. There's no Good and Evil in anyone's mind until they witness others actions and opinions.

And he is pretty right :P
If a baby did something like that, you wouldn't claim it as evill (ignore the fact that the baby doersn't have teeth :p) This further proves that good and evil is just a point of perspective.
Possibly gained from upbringing.
However, this is assuming that there is no such thing as literal good and evil.
It could be that these two things exist, not even in the form of light and dark as they are associated, but as something invisibl, something very different to what we are used to. Most would claim this as a fantasy induced theory.
But think about it, many would have said the same about the germ theory at the time ;)

[burntlettuce]

Good and Evil vary form person to person because of opinions, however there has to be a natural law somewhere that everyone knows inside them, that is there morals. True Morals don't differ, they have been the things that have ruled thousands of Civilizations and are what we use today as laws.

To me i think most people on earth, aren't evil but lean towards bad. Just because doing the wrong this is so much easier then doing the right thing. Like lying, every SINGLE person on this forum has lied at least once, even i have. Lying to me is the most conman bad thing that any human does. Take for instance your about to get yelled at by your parents for breaking something, but instead of telling the truth you lie about it and shove the blame on someone else, because its the easier way out.

When giving the choice between right and wrong i would say most people chose the wrong thing, just because its easier, now i am not talking about big ideas such as killing someone ect...Because lets be honest how many of us are every going to be in that situation, not a lot.

So its not like that the average person does the big bad thing, but just little ones at a time, which after awhile adds up. Take for instance if every time you told a lie you went and struck a nail through a 2x4 while probably after awhile the board would just be nails.

To me Good and Evil do not differ form each, they differ in there minds but there is just some natural law out there that defines what is good or wrong. Because how could people like in the Stone Age, differer right form wrong?

[Mystlord]

If we're referring to the concept of good and evil, then they don't exist. Good and evil are really only human words of two concepts that can't really be defined. They aren't polar opposites, but, like everything in the world, it is relative.
Good and evil are concepts that solely rely on the person describing. To connect this with a well known fact, "History is written by the winners." In fact, our analysis of history is rather flawed as we only look at one side of the perspective. One example would be Adolf Hitler. We've never known his side of the story. All we've seen and heard is the Holocaust and it is bad and it killed millions of people. Unfortunately, we've never seen Hitler's diaries, journals, or anything of the sort. Instead, we've only seen Hitler's speeches, which contain mass propaganda, so they're pretty much junk.

One big contrast between Good and Evil is the nature of it. Evil is generally easier to do than good. To make an analogy, constructing and destruction. Which one is easier, building the Empire State Building or destroying it? I think we rather saw that one at 9/11. If the concepts of good and evil really exist, then humans generally tend to go with evil. I think that, as humans, we generally crave destruction. There's a reason why we love and produce so many shooter games or just games with pure violence. However, trying to be 'Good' is near impossible in this situation because the end result is always death/killing.

Which brings me to another point about good and evil. Morals. Morals are considered to be basic human behavior. I remember that Time magazine recently wrote a very good article on it, paired up with moral examples. For example, there is a clear difference between people who believe in 'the greater good' than the people who believe in 'every life is precious'. So who is right? Is it worth it to kill many people to save even more? A moral dilemma is: Do you kill 4 people to save 15 people? Also consider that each of the 4 people has family, while the 15 people don't. Who would you kill? Whatever your answer, you are both good and evil.

One last thing I would like to mention. Can you consider good to be the absence of evil, or evil the absence of good, or both? Why?
*Essay writing begins.... NOW* (Not really)

[Xykru]

So far, so good, peoples are leavign out religion!

AS far as your point goes, burntlettuce, that is true, few, very few, will deal with that situation, I was just trying to put it into perspective, and couldn't think of anythign personal about it.

But about lying, there may be times when you have no choice but to lie, to keep someone happy, or from going insane... Somethigns cannot be said to people who suffer from, lets say, severe (sp?) depression and temporary psychosis instability. There are things that aren't true that you must say, and truths you must hide, to keep them off the verge of a suicidal breakdown.

So, again to mudson's point: should exceptions be made depending on what case we are looking at?

-------------

Hm, lemme repeat something Mystlord:

So then, I say good and evil exist, yet there is no line that seperates them, but they are one faction, mingling together, ready to be taken and viewed through the scope of each individual.

that is my view on your proposed essay question...

[Zagroy]

So far from what I've read here my views are closely related to what is posted. Personally I believe There is no clear Good or evil but a compililation of variences or the gray area's as i like to call them. I call them gray because depending on an individuals morals or beliefs go they can be vied as either good or evil. This can be seen in cases that happen all the time, Like when a Texas man got arrested and tried for murder. He was sentenced to 10 years in prison with no perole, most would consider him evil. But the truth behind it is that he murderd a man that was trying to rape and kill the Texas mans wife. This incident occured in a bar and was vied as a bar fight that turned violent. I'd put that into a gray area classification myself.

[Key of Valor]

Only people's intentions can be labeled good or evil.
Actions and things ultimately do lie in either catagory.

[X@ld!n]

I would love to rule the world. Im tired of been bossed about.

[Zagroy]

yeah that would be a lot of fun... I call Japan ....that is if I rule the world first.

[Kryptik]

[QUOTE=Kryptik;762379]Once again there is already a thread for this so stop making more when you already have one.

[dragonlord562]

There is no good, evil or gray. Again it all leads to the roots, which are morals. Good and evil are concepts we have been taught since childhood, depending on which religion was preached to us(unless you are atheist or secular). We have had these ingrained thoughts that you are evil for harming this person, or for being selfish etc. etc. etc. However, there is no line, as there is no side to draw a line between. Good and evil are subjective based on the person's morals. Some people sacrificing for the greater good is something good, while others see those sacrifices as anything but good. In our current modern society, it is considered evil for people to be sacrificed on altars etc., yet it was the norm in ancient societies. It is considered good for a woman to cross a barrier of sex in a certain field, yet long ago, woman working and doing doctor jobs and lawyers, businesswomen, etc. was considered blasphemy(idk what it means, i'm guessing like insanity or nonsense). Thus the concepts of good and evil have shifted over time, changing with people's perceptions of their surroundings and human nature. In the end, evil and good are both justified by people's rationalizations, and someone can argue in both directions with their own justified statements. Thus the question becomes, its not who's right, as sometimes both sides are right in their beliefs. The question is what is the question? We always think in such narrow minded terms, we cannot percieve the true question that should plague our minds in all of these situations. This is very grave if we cannot even realize what is the question.
Where is the original thread for this topic Kryptic? I see darkness and light, but no good or evil.